LDITE -- did Xena want Ares to believe she was dead?

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LadyKate63	LDITE -- did Xena want Ares to believe she was dead?	Lead	[-]
Administrator Moderator Olympian Posts: 78156 (05/19/08 5:30 PM) Xena Studies Ph.D. Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : xena, ares, livia, ldite So, we've been having a very interesting discussion in the main forum about how Xena knew that Ares would stop her from skewering herself with her sword on that beach in Looking Death in the Eye, and why it never occurred to her that he would bury her and Gabrielle. Jinx's Minx suggested that maybe on some level Xena, or some part of her, was hoping that Ares would catch on and realize that she was faking suicide. That seemed rather unlikely to me, but then I remembered something very interesting... and I can't believe I never noticed it before. Here's what happens in Livia after Xena and Gabs wake up and go down to the village: Xena: "Gabrielle, I don't recognize this place." Woman: "Are you ladies lost?" Xena: "Well, that depends. Where are we?" Woman: "At the foot of Mt. Etna." Gabrielle: "Mt. Etna? How did we get here?" Xena: "Ares. Ares?! Come out! I know you're here, someplace." Woman: "Beg pardon, but, uh-- Ares hasn't been seen in these parts since the legendary Xena died about, ooh, 25 years ago." Xena: "25 years." So, Xena stages Gabrielle and Eve's death and her own suicide, making Ares the principal witness. And what's the first thing she does when she wakes up? Call on Ares. So here's my question. Did she actually think that maybe he would have caught a clue to the fact that she was faking her suicide? Did she intend for him to know she was alive? She certainly doesn't seem to concerned about keeping a low profile where Ares is concerned, in that scene! Thoughts? "They have this love/hate, lust/hate relationship." -- Lucy Lawless See my artwork and fanfiction at The Muse's Corner * Visit Xena Online Community Keepership and sig script by Nutty, Avatars by Cila
Aurora Goddess		#1	[-]
Administrator Olympian Posts: 13993 (05/19/08 5:49 PM) Shipper Enthusiast Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Well, my initial reaction to that moment was simply that she was calling on Ares because she knew--realized--that he was the one to bury their bodies. She knew he had watched her die. And after waking up, she saw her weapons set up as a shrine or grave-marker. She figured Ares had been the one to do that, the one to take them there to that ice cave since he was the last one to see her before she died. So when she woke up and realized what had happened, Ares would be the first one to have all of the answers about why they were there. That's why she called on him. Regardless if she thought that Ares knew she was really "dead" or not, didn't matter. Her first reaction was to call on him because he had been the reason they were buried. This is an interesting thought. I'll have to think about it. XOC Forum Host, Graphic Artist and Technical Administrator "Do something SCARY... The payoff is awesome!" - Lucy Lawless My personal website (banner above) \|\| Shipper Seasons \|\| Bonded For Eternity Signature graphics by me \|\| XA black/white avatar by Lionchilde \|\| Userbar graphics by me, Taladarkie, Nanz, & Nutty
Tango79		#2	[-]
Moderator Three Star General Posts: 3146 (05/19/08 6:08 PM) Xena's Champion Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The thing is, if Xena called on Ares because she realised he buried them... then clearly she didn't expect him to believe they were dead -- and more importantly, she must then realise that he does believe they're dead now. So clearly she doesn't mind disabusing him of this notion. Take what you want, and pay for it. -– Spanish proverb Read fanfiction and more at THE TANGO SCRAWLS.
DarkQueen88		#3	[-]
One Star General Posts: 115 (05/19/08 6:30 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	LadyKate63 wrote: So here's my question. Did she actually think that maybe he would have caught a clue to the fact that she was faking her suicide? oh, um, not sure really. Though, honestly, I don't see how he could have. I didn't even realize it the first time around. Unless maybe she thought he was keeping tabs on her with portal vision, because obviously she would know if he were actually there, watching her in person. Huh, now there's another question. Off topic: The gods think Eve is the Big Scary, bringer of Twilight and all that...so why didn't they keep watch with those nifty portal things? Some restriction on portal usage? (of course the simple answer is: Because that would have messed up the plot)
LadyKate63		#4	[-]
Administrator Moderator Olympian Posts: 78159 (05/19/08 7:00 PM) Xena Studies Ph.D. Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	DarkQueen88 said: Some restriction on portal usage? Yes, they were on an energy-saver plan Zeus had implemented on Olympus. Tango79 said: The thing is, if Xena called on Ares because she realised he buried them... then clearly she didn't expect him to believe they were dead -- and more importantly, she must then realise that he does believe they're dead now. So clearly she doesn't mind disabusing him of this notion. Hmm, does this mean she clearly didn't expect him to believe they were dead? She clearly didn't expect him to bury them, but what did she expect? A 24-hour vigil over her body giving her enough time to wake up and say "Hi, Ares"? Of course partly this has to do with the fact that the entire plot of LDITE has more holes than the proverbial Swiss cheese, even for a Xena episode. In any case, what interests me more is that as you say, she clearly doesn't mind letting Ares know she's alive. And it's not like she really needs him at this point -- OK, he could tell her what happened, but she could figure it out herself, and Eve would be with Octavius, not with him. "They have this love/hate, lust/hate relationship." -- Lucy Lawless See my artwork and fanfiction at The Muse's Corner * Visit Xena Online Community Keepership and sig script by Nutty, Avatars by Cila
ChakramGoddess		#5	[-]
Four Star General Posts: 4263 (05/19/08 10:05 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Of course partly this has to do with the fact that the entire plot of LDITE has more holes than the proverbial Swiss cheese, even for a Xena episode. No kidding! Trying to make sense of LDITE makes my brain hurt. Just when you think you've solved one plothole, you discover a new one. But I think I agree with Aurora. Most likely, Xena called on Ares because she was pissed at him for messing up her plan and suspected that something had gone wrong. I don't think it had anything to do with him possibly knowing she was alive. Avatar by Zaudeen \| XTW banner by JinxsMinx \| Keepership and Bad Boys banner by Aurora \| Userbar graphics by a whole bunch of people (you know who you are!) No Xena, No Xenaverse! Ares' Misfit Femme - XGBoM
LadyKate63		#6	[-]
Administrator Moderator Olympian Posts: 78180 (05/19/08 11:05 PM) Xena Studies Ph.D. Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	OK, I can see where my initial post was confusing. I don't think Xena calling on Ares proves that she thought maybe he knew she was alive. Although... you gotta admit, the way she calls on him, it doesn't sound like she expects him to be too surprised to find her alive. It's more that ... she obviously doesn't mind, as Tango points out, disabusing him of the notion that she is dead. Which raises the question for me, did she ever really intend for him to believe she was dead? Is it possible that even back there on the beach she was hoping that he's pick up some kind of cue from her that she was faking it? (You can thank Jinx for putting that thought in my head. ) "They have this love/hate, lust/hate relationship." -- Lucy Lawless See my artwork and fanfiction at The Muse's Corner * Visit Xena Online Community Keepership and sig script by Nutty, Avatars by Cila
sarinou		#7	[-]
Two Star General Posts: 2057 (05/20/08 6:41 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Oh thanks Jinxy, now you messed up our heads completely I never gave this much thought actually...only because I always thought Xena never expected Ares to get the "faking death" part of the plan. Nop. For me she didn't even trust him enough back then to think about him realizing she was just pretending to die in orther to make the gods leave her and her family alone. And I totally agree with LK and CG about the holes in LDITE plot, IMHO this is just one of those many holes : Xena just never thought about what Ares would do after her fake death. Hope that makes sense PLA FOREVER!!! Without Gabrielle there would be no Xena Thanks to SaraXenite for the banner, to Shenanigen for the scroll and to Aurora Goddess for the keeper sig!
LadyKate63		#8	[-]
Administrator Moderator Olympian Posts: 78208 (05/20/08 2:38 PM) Xena Studies Ph.D. Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hmm, I think that by LDITE -- I'd say after AUS where he does fight on her side -- Xena actually trust Ares to a large extent. When he shows up on the cart in LDITE she instinctively treats him as an ally (and only starts acting hostile when he gets all cocky and tells her that sooner or later she'll have to come to him for help, and presumably accept his "deal"). Obviously she kept him in the dark about her plan to fake their deaths, but did she intend to let him go on believing she was dead? I come back to my initial question -- why does she call on him in Livia? "They have this love/hate, lust/hate relationship." -- Lucy Lawless See my artwork and fanfiction at The Muse's Corner * Visit Xena Online Community Keepership and sig script by Nutty, Avatars by Cila
DarkQueen88		#9	[-]
One Star General Posts: 125 (05/20/08 3:03 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Those plotholes are really bugging me now. I have this urge to merge a picture of swiss cheese over a LDITE collage. Back to topic: I had a thought! (what else is new, that's like my tag line now ) Actually two thoughts. Maybe she had planned to call on him after she woke up anyway? To get his help or manipulate him into doing something for her again? Maybe she just didn't like knowing he thought she was dead and trusted him not to give them away? (actually, don't really believe that one, it just wanted to be posted) Last Edited By: DarkQueen88 05/20/08 3:57 PM. Edited 1 times.
sarinou		#10	[-]
Two Star General Posts: 2077 (05/20/08 3:37 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I still don't think she trusted him completely. Yes he fought by her side - and gods what a wonderful shipper moment that was...- but he was still after something. So even if she started realizing that his feelings were real and that he trully cared about her, I don't think she would have trusted him enough to let him into her plan. But that doesn't really matter anymore cos apparently that wasn't the question anyway... Obviously she kept him in the dark about her plan to fake their deaths, but did she intend to let him go on believing she was dead? I come back to my initial question -- why does she call on him in Livia? Oh oh now I get it yeah yeah, I know, took me long enough...well, I don't think she really planned on calling him after her wake up initially, I think she just did because the plan went wrong and because it was majorly his fault (although he didn't really do it on purpose...). Therefore, when she realized 25 years had passed while she was sleeping thanks to Ares burying her in the ice cave her first instinct was to call him, whether because she was mad at him or just to understand what happened or something like that... PLA FOREVER!!! Without Gabrielle there would be no Xena Thanks to SaraXenite for the banner, to Shenanigen for the scroll and to Aurora Goddess for the keeper sig!
DarkQueen88		#11	[-]
One Star General Posts: 126 (05/20/08 3:46 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Ah, but she calls him before she figures out its been 25 years.
sarinou		#12	[-]
Two Star General Posts: 2079 (05/20/08 3:50 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Damn, you had to ruin my theory didn't ya? Actually I didn't remember that... oh no, wait, you're right, the old lady only said the 25 years part after Xena tried to call him. All right, so...she still realized that things didn't go according to plan (just scrap the 25 years previous remark ) and that it was his fault and that's why she called him, whether because she was mad or to know what happened or whatever...does it work now? PLA FOREVER!!! Without Gabrielle there would be no Xena Thanks to SaraXenite for the banner, to Shenanigen for the scroll and to Aurora Goddess for the keeper sig!
DarkQueen88		#13	[-]
One Star General Posts: 128 (05/20/08 4:01 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Yep, works now and I might even go with that. Right now, I'm sort of waffling on the answer.
Aresbitch		#14	[-]
One Star General Posts: 1071 (05/20/08 4:08 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	From Xena's perspective, no time has passed at all. The last thing she saw before falling into the death-like sleep was Ares grieving, angry face and the next thing she knows, she's waking up in an ice coffin in a place that's unfamiliar to her, or not as familiar as 'home', and that she and Gabrielle are apparently still alive rather than dead. I'd have been surprised if Ares wasn't the first person she called to given the circumstances. I think it demonstrates a tremendous trust in Ares that she doesn't try to hide that she's woken up from him. Then again, he's already fought for, and with, her for her child's life, and guided them to a safe cave when they were being pursued by the temple armies. She's got no reason to think he would run to Athena with the news of her survival. Then, to continue with the plot hole circle from hell, if she trusted him that much, why subject him to watching her 'die' without at least winking at him before she succumbed. Just to let him know it wasn't all that it seemed.
LadyKate63		#15	[-]
Administrator Moderator Olympian Posts: 78210 (05/20/08 4:17 PM) Xena Studies Ph.D. Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Aresbitch said: Then, to continue with the plot hole circle from hell, if she trusted him that much, why subject him to watching her 'die' without at least winking at him before she succumbed. Just to let him know it wasn't all that it seemed. But would she trust him to be a good enough actor to keep up the pretense and keep Athena and the rest of the gang convinced that she really was dying? "They have this love/hate, lust/hate relationship." -- Lucy Lawless See my artwork and fanfiction at The Muse's Corner * Visit Xena Online Community Keepership and sig script by Nutty, Avatars by Cila
Aresbitch		#16	[-]
One Star General Posts: 1073 (05/20/08 4:28 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The obvious answer would be that these are the same gods that got fooled by a doll during AUS, so..... But no, I think when it comes to Eve's life, she probably thought it would be more convincing for the gods on the hill if Ares grief was real. They'd be looking at his reaction, just because they knew he loved her and maybe they'd be looking for any signs of a ruse.
LadyKate63		#17	[-]
Administrator Moderator Olympian Posts: 78212 (05/20/08 4:39 PM) Xena Studies Ph.D. Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The obvious answer would be that these are the same gods that got fooled by a doll during AUS, so..... Yeah, well, we'll forget that for the moment and assume that they have more than three functioning brain cells between them. Actually reminds me of a Sherlock Holmes story where Holmes leads Watson to believe he's dying of some rare tropical fever and asks him to fetch a famous physician who specializes in these types of cases. Actually Holmes is not sick at all and trying to entrap the physician, who tried to poison him because he was investigating the physician's murder of a relative by means of the same poison (which induces symptoms similar to said tropical fever). The plan works of course, and afterwards a rather miffed Watson asks Holmes why he led him to believe he was actually dying and caused him such anguish, whereupon Holmes replies that knowing what a sincere man Watson is, he couldn't count on him to convince the physician Holmes was actually dying unless Watson believed it himself. Ares is pretty impulsive, actually -- remember how he betrays himself in Ties That Bind by suddenly reviving and showing way too much vigor when it looks like Xena is not going to slaughter the villagers after all. I think that if Xena gave him some signal that she wasn't really dying, it's very likely that he would have blown the entire plan for her. "They have this love/hate, lust/hate relationship." -- Lucy Lawless See my artwork and fanfiction at The Muse's Corner * Visit Xena Online Community Keepership and sig script by Nutty, Avatars by Cila
Aresbitch		#18	[-]
One Star General Posts: 1074 (05/20/08 4:45 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I guess it's safe to assume that Xena made the right decision then.
sarinou		#19	[-]
Two Star General Posts: 2080 (05/20/08 5:01 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Huh...Aresbitch, you're being ironic, right? Cos well...he still ruined the plan after all...by making her sleep those 25 years in the ice cave. How ironic is that? She doesn't tell him what she's planning so that he doesn't ruin the plan and he ends up doing exactly that. I'd never thought of it like that but now that I do... PLA FOREVER!!! Without Gabrielle there would be no Xena Thanks to SaraXenite for the banner, to Shenanigen for the scroll and to Aurora Goddess for the keeper sig!
Aresbitch		#20	[-]
One Star General Posts: 1076 (05/20/08 5:28 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I don't see it as Ares ruining the plan. He didn't have all the information and he was showing the woman he loved the highest regard by burying her where time wouldn't touch her. If Xena needed for Ares to believe she was dead in order to sell it to the other gods, I don't blame her for that, but I also don't see it being Ares' fault that things didn't go as planned, either. It was just.........unfortunate.

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LDITE -- did Xena want Ares to believe she was dead?

LDITE -- did Xena want Ares to believe she was dead?

DarkQueen88 said:

Tango79 said:

Aresbitch said: