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xenawp7706 |
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I agree. Xena could have been anybody in History. Someone who was there, but was never seen and never mentioned in ancient books
No Xena, No Xenaverse
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pops29 |
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I like this idea! It makes her even more real!^^
¤~... No Xena No Xenaverse... ~¤
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Daughter of Tiaran |
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"If you're wondering how he eats and breathes
And other science facts Just repeat to yourself it's just a show I should really just relax!" :
"Would you kindly....?"
--Charles Atlas, BioShock
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joxerfan |
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It's also really weird how sometimes in the later and more historic settings (i.e. Caesar and his heirs) we see fairly straightforward depictions of
historic events, just with Xena added (e.g. Caesar and Pompey really were friendly rivals for power, then enemies, young Caesar really was captured by pirates,
Antony really did fall for Cleopatra and then lose a major naval battle to the Romans, Caligula really did claim he was a god, etc.) But other times there is
this odd alternate reality: rather than Christians, we get "Elijans." Rather than John the Baptist preceding that movement's leader in the near
east, we get "the Baptist" flourishing a generation later near Rome. Rather than Augustus marrying a manipulative woman named Livia and naming her
child (his adoptive child) as general of his armies, we get Augustus rasing a manipulative adoptive child named Livia, naming her general of his armies, and
then wanting to marry her!
Possibly someone in, say, Japan, who was not familiar with European history, wouldn't care, but since many people in the US learn much of the above every week in Sunday school, I agree that it was sometimes jarring. Whereas when we got a thinly veiled version of Abraham and Isaac in "Altared States," or a passing reference to Mary and Joseph in "Solstice Carol," it didn't seem to really matter much. I wouldn't be surprised if Chinese-American viewers were cringing with all the kingdom of Lao, Kingdom of Chin stuff from "The Debt," which probably takes just as outrageous liberties with that nation's history. |
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athenasword |
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The Asians I know, in my family who I forced to watch The Debts with, as well as Asian fans, didn't seem to care, in fact they laughed at the historical
bent they took on it.
The only time a cringe is particularly noteworthy (besides the Classics teachers who have to deal with passionate Xenites) are when the show interferes with a major living religion. On Xena, those were Christianity and Hinduism. Watch the commentaries for Fallen Angel et al. and Tapert says that they specifically took inspiration from Dante and Milton for those arcs, literary Christianity, not Biblical Christianity which runs the risk of offending more. The one-offs like Mary's donkey, David and Goliath, etc. can be specifically passed off because: the characters are not named from their Biblical counterparts, therefore they are not truly them, or Xena participated in bringing those events to pass, but was not responsible for them. Christianity and elements of Christian symbolism and tradition have become so ingrained in secular society that it's doubtful anyone would raise a serious row over any of the pseudo-Christian elements on Xena. Hinduism was the biggest backlash on account that it is considered extremely sensitive by some sects to depict the gods in any form other than as sacred images. When a god is played by an actor on stage or screen, it automatically adds a human element which is otherwise not present in the religion. Hercules and Xena function on the basis that the gods, no matter what country you're in, function exactly like humans and appear regularly to assist or interact with humans. Hinduism does not acknowledge this and takes it very seriously. In their mind, to have the Hindu gods depicted in the same manner and on the same level as Ares, Thor, and Odin is sacreligious. Offense was also drawn because Xena essentially adds a chapter to the Ramayana by destroying Ravana's son. The liberties taken with expanding the spiritual epic, and the depiction of deities exactly the same as the ancient Greeks, was what got The Way in trouble. Often the only times actors are allowed to play deities in Indian cinema are for enactments of the legends specifically as laid down in the texts for educational purposes. Hell, even I found Xena's one off Hulk-like Kali power-up mildly offensive. Notice also that the North African episodes focus specifically on Orientalist/Arabian Nights imagery and have absolutely no mention of religion whatsoever.
Last Edited By: athenasword
05/08/08 5:26 PM.
Edited 3 times.
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LadyKate63 |
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Daughter of Tiaran wrote: Yeah, that's pretty much what Steve Sears said at the con the other day. As for Xena being a real person... I guess the history-mangling (like squeezing the Trojan War, the Battle of Marathon and the assassination of Caesar within roughly a 5-year period) makes that a little less likely, no? I have to say I'm not a big believer in the idea that there are all these female heroes out there whose existence was suppressed by the patriarchal culture, by male historians etc. Women in nontraditional/powerful roles were generally viewed with a mix of admiration, fascination, repulsion and sexual anxiety -- they may have been reviled in many cases, but hardly ignored. (There's a widespread belief that there was a concerted attempt to erase the female pharaoh Hatshepsout from history because she was a woman, but I'm not sure that's true -- this page, at least, tells a different story.) In fact it's pretty clear that in many cases Greek historians exaggerated/overstated the prominence of female warriors (like in their reports of the Amazons -- yes, those reports were partly grounded in the reality of female warriors in some cultures but it's highly doubtful that there were ever tribes of warrior women). If a woman like Xena had existed, I'm sure she would have had a pretty prominent place in the works of ancient Greek and Roman historians (most of whom tended to be fascinated with everything unusual) -- sometimes as a hero or even a demigoddess, sometimes as a witch, a monster, a sexual vampire etc. But she would not have been very forgettable.
"They have this love/hate, lust/hate relationship." -- Lucy Lawless
See my artwork and fanfiction at The Muse's Corner * Visit Xena Online Community Keepership and sig script by Nutty, Avatars by Cila |
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CasualFan |
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"If you're wondering how he eats and breathes
And other science facts Just repeat to yourself it's just a show I should really just relax!" Damn, I miss Joel, Mike and the 'bots - hey, didn't MST3K do a Herc movie? Not our Herc, unfortunately - it was one of those Steve Reeves epics from the 50's, complete with badly dubbed Italian actors and lots of baby oil. When I first got into X:WP, the odd mix of mythology, classical history and complete invention took me aback - did it really make sense to have stories about David and Goliath and Ulysses cheek-by-jowl with the First Triumvirate? After a while, though I remembered that it really was just a show; the quality of the writing in the first few seasons helped considerably. The S4 Hindu storyline and the pseudo-Christian saga of S5 did bother me, but more for what they were doing to and saying about the characters than for any perceived blasphemies.
Creator - A comedian whose audience is afraid to laugh.. - H.L.Mencken
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Daughter of Tiaran |
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CF--they're doing Rifftrax now if you really miss them a lot. They're all good, or at least all
the ones we've tried, but some of them--in particular the ones for "Battlefield Earth" and "Transformers"--are screamingly hilarious.
hey, didn't MST3K do a Herc movie? Not our Herc, unfortunately They did three. "Hercules Unchained," "Hercules and the Captive Women," and "Hercules Against the Moonmen," the latter chiefly notable for introducing the MiSTies' concept of "DEEP HURTING!!!" Anyway, now back to our regularly scheduled thread.
"Would you kindly....?"
--Charles Atlas, BioShock
Last Edited By: Daughter of Tiaran
05/09/08 12:09 AM.
Edited 1 times.
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TheJollyApe |
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If a woman like Xena had existed, I'm sure she would have had a pretty prominent place in the works of ancient Greek and Roman historians (most of whom tended to be fascinated with everything unusual) Well she was an enemy to (the beginnings of) the Roman Empire. I'm thinking that would have forced her into non-existence no matter her female status. She questioned and attacked what would become a very powerful empire. The most effective way for the Romans to remove her power would have been to force her into non-existence by disregarding all of her actions and exclude her from all the written works. Wasn't that what happened with Hatshepsut as well? Her being "removed" from history not because of her woman status, but because of her enemies hatred of her. ![]() |
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gravitystar |
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If we're going down the "women warriors were credited" route by bringing in the Amazons then I'm going to have to stress a point (having done
all this in my dissertation recently). The Amazons were mostly mentioned in a negative context, and were in fact possibly based upon a small tribe of female
warriors. The Greeks would have exaggerated this and made them appear more savage than they were, if they had in fact existed. There are a couple of accounts
in which they were regarded with less negative connotations, but that was only when they were conforming to what the Greeks (or I should really say Athenians)
believed was the right role for women i. e. marriage.
The Greeks may have mentioned Xena (if she had existed) but if it were similar writers to the ones writing about any warrior type women, then she would have been viewed in a negative context, as her warrior life went against what they considered the normal role for women to play. So because of this viewpoint, she would not have been mentioned if her part was alongside a man in history, because then they would be promoting the idea that a women could play the role of a man. Women in Greek history, especially early Greek history (rather than after the Roman conquest) would only have been mentioned if they were being used to show that the role women were supposed to play (housewife, no opinions on political matters, domain indoors). The only group of people I know of in Greece that would have cheered her on were the Spartans, as their women were seen as more equal and did train with the men, but no text from Sparta exist. So what I'm saying is, the Athenians/Greeks would have preferred to keep her hidden if possible because she went against what they considered the normal roles of nature for men and women. For her to have mention, in a positive context, she would have possibly influenced women to believe they were worth more than the life they were living. The idea of women taking on men's roles, or gender ambiguity in general seemed to have been a scary concept for the Greeks, and so any attempt would have been made to avoid mention of it, or destroy the idea of it. NO GABRIELLE, NO XENA! PLA | Keeper of Gabrielle's Quill |
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